Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. testified Tuesday before a Senate panel about waste in his department, as Democrats became testy over several points.
During the hearing of the Senate Appropriations Subcommittee on Labor, Health and Human Services, Education, and Related Agencies, Kennedy noted, “This agency has a budget that is comparable to the sixth largest nation in the world.”
Here are four key highlights from the hearing.
1. ‘Destruction of the Health of the American People’
Sen. Patty Murray, D-Wash., the vice chairwoman of the Senate Appropriations Committee, asked numerous questions about what she characterized as cuts to the department since the beginning of the second Trump administration and lambasted Kennedy for terminating jobs in the department.
“What you are doing right now is enacting your [own] budget that Congress has not passed, by cutting critical funding across the board,” Murray said.
Early in the testimony, when Kennedy would begin to answer her questions, she routinely interrupted with more questions.
For example, when Murray asked, “Whose decision was it to withhold child care and development block grant funding?”
Kennedy replied, “In 2021, at the beginning of his administration, President Biden …”
Murray jumped in: “I’m not interested.”
An exasperated Kennedy shot back, “You made an accusation of me. I’m going to answer it.”
“On May 28, he [President Joe Biden] submitted his budget. Our budget, we are a new administration …” Kennedy said, before Murray interjected again.
“I have just two minutes left,” Murray said.
“I want to point out something, senator,” Kennedy said. “You presided here for over 32 years. You presided over the destruction of the health of the American people. Our people are now the sickest people in the world because you have not done your job.”
Murray became upset.
“Mr. Secretary, seriously? Mr. Secretary, seriously? I am here to ask you …” Murray said, though Kennedy didn’t cease talking.
“What have you done about the epidemic of chronic disease?” the HHS secretary asked.
Murray continued, “Seriously, seriously.”
Murray said that in the last four months, Kennedy fired thousands of National Institutes of Health staff and terminated more than 1,600 NIH grants.
“Whose decision was it to terminate these NIH grants?”
Kennedy challenged her information: “Senator, I don’t trust your information, with all due respect. You told me two days ago or four days ago that we cut a clinical trial in your state, and what you said turned out to be completely untrue, and you knew it was untrue because you corresponded with Jay Bhattacharya.”
Bhattacharya is the NIH director.
“Your staff didn’t get back to me until 45 minutes ago,” Murray said.
Kennedy replied: “We have the emails from two weeks ago. Two weeks ago you were corresponding to what you knew was untrue when you said it.”
Murray replied, “You came here to argue with me.”
2. ‘Only in Washington Would That Be Called Cuts’
Sen. Jack Reed, D-R.I., said more than 10 million people could lose access to Medicaid because of the proposed spending bill in the House, regularly called “the big, beautiful bill.”
“The consequences of millions of people losing Medicaid is that many more will go to the emergency room,” Reed said.
Kennedy replied, “First of all, we haven’t made cuts. Only in Washington would that be called cuts.”
“The reductions that were proposed are reductions in rate of growth over the next five years, and those reductions are to eliminate waste, fraud, and abuse,” Kennedy said.
“There are 1 million people now on Medicaid, accepting Medicaid, collecting Medicaid in two states [at the same time]. That’s illegal. They are stealing from the Medicaid program,” Kennedy said. “There are 1 million collecting both Obamacare and Medicaid. That’s illegal. It is also a theft.”
He further noted that after the Trump administration stopped allowing Medicaid payments to illegal immigrants, so did California Gov. Gavin Newsom, a Democrat. Medicaid benefits are paid jointly by the federal and state governments.
“As soon as we made the announcement we are not going to allow that funding anymore, Gavin Newsom followed by announcing that he’s not going to fund it anymore,” Kennedy said. “So his compassion ended when he had to start paying for it.”
3. John and Bobby Kennedy Chat
No relation, but Sen. John Kennedy, R-La., who shares the name of 35th president and the uncle of the HHS secretary, is also on the Appropriations Subcommittee.
The Louisiana senator defended the workforce reductions at HHS with his questions, inquiring, “How many employees were at HHS when you took over?”
The secretary answered it was 82,000 under the Biden administration and is now 62,000.
“That’s about the level it was in 2019 before COVID,” Kennedy said. “Is this the first time that an institution in America was ever downsized?”
The secretary answered, “I think both private and public institutions have been [downsizing].”
The senator followed: “Microsoft just announced they were going to reduce their workforce by 6,000 people. Do you think that will be the end of Microsoft?”
He later asked, “Meta—I still call them Facebook—just announced they are going to reduce their workforce by 3,000 people. Do you believe that will be the end of Meta?”
In both cases, the secretary said he doubted it was the end of the companies.
4. ‘No Room to Cut NIH Research, Right?’
Democrats throughout the hearing decried spending cuts to the NIH.
Sen. Markwayne Mullin, R-Okla., said the top four recipients of NIH research grant funding received a combined $2.8 billion, and of that, almost $1.7 billion went to indirect expenses unrelated to the research.
“Harvard received $488 million from NIH, and 69% went to indirect costs, meaning it didn’t go to research,” Mullin said. “Yale received $646 million, and 67.5% of NIH money went to indirect costs, meaning it didn’t go to research. John Hopkins University got $858 million, 67.5% went to indirect costs, meaning 67.5% of $858 million did not go to research. University of California, San Francisco received $815 million in NIH money and 59% went to indirect costs.”
Mullin followed: “I’m sure there is no room to cut NIH research, right?”
Beyond the top four grant recipients, Kennedy said the total of indirect expenses from all NIH grants is $9 billion.
“That’s $9 billion that didn’t go to research,” he said. “We don’t know what it goes to.”
The secretary added, “The private universities that have the big endowments that you were referring to, they are the ones that get the most inflated numbers.”
